{"comments":{"896839":{"pb_id":"45736","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"896839","comment_id":"896839","member_id":"45736","comment":"Has anyone ever devised speed ratings for the most used XC courses...maybe one in each state\/two in Calif. and NY etc. Could use busiest Course as base point. obviously these are mythical ratings just for talk. But with all these fast times popping up now, how do you compare Baxter's 16:11on a 3 mile but hilly course starting on pavement with times being run at other major meets. Someone did a good comparison, for example between Ocean County Park and Holmdel in N.J. A weather deviation could also be thrown in the mix.altitude also could be factored into the equation. Notice there are speed ratings given for some results in NY State on Armory track but do not know the formulation.
\nThe country is getting "smaller" than it was in 1976 in terms of awareness of what runners are doing everywhere and competitors from many states will venture outside their state now.
\nJust want to enhance dialogue and global awareness for a sport which re hires a lot of work and commitment versus recognition and public perception.
\n.","date_added":"Oct 28th 2013, 2:42am","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":191358,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"Bsarno1","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=45736","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/Bsarno1.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1116260"},"895506":{"pb_id":"44418","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"895506","comment_id":"895506","member_id":"44418","comment":"I think Cerake may be on his way up to No. 1.","date_added":"Oct 27th 2013, 4:58pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":{"wally_id":"1082747","email_settings":"4294967295","email":"dbind4@aol.com","address":"DougB","gender":"u","member_id":"44418","member_name":"DougB","avatar_location":"av-44418.jpg","avatar_type":"upload","avatar":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-44418.jpg"},"can_delete":false,"item_id":191358,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-44418.jpg","pb_title":"DougB","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=44418","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/DougB.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1082747"},"895474":{"pb_id":"42418","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"895474","comment_id":"895474","member_id":"42418","comment":"The Mt. SAC results have to juggle things for sure. I'm still catching up on Mt. SAC full stories ... anyone read what happened to Haney, if he was sick or anything? Not that he ran horribly, but certainly a bit off. Wonder if all of the major races, plus his mid-summer track racing, caught up with him a bit.","date_added":"Oct 27th 2013, 4:47pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":191358,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-42418.jpeg","pb_title":"SteveU","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=42418","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/SteveU.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1030740"},"895271":{"pb_id":"50393","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"895271","comment_id":"895271","member_id":"50393","comment":"Cerake 15:48 on possibly the most difficult state meet course in the country. Crazy.
\n
\nCranny 18:07, Gregory 18:36, Eva Lou Edwards from Bayfield 18:41, Rainsberger 18:47, Colter....bad day, 20:43.","date_added":"Oct 27th 2013, 3:55pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":191358,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"Sean O'Day","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=50393","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/Sean-O--39-Day.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1206410"},"895265":{"pb_id":"3026","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"895265","comment_id":"895265","member_id":"3026","comment":"So I'm thinking Austin Tamagno moves up, ya Doug?","date_added":"Oct 27th 2013, 2:46pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":{"wally_id":"35","email_settings":"7168","email":"chrisnickinson@gmail.com","address":"chrisnickinson","gender":"m","member_id":"3026","member_name":"Chris Nickinson","avatar_location":"av-3026.jpg","avatar_type":"upload","avatar":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-3026.jpg"},"can_delete":false,"item_id":191358,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-3026.jpg","pb_title":"Chris Nickinson","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=3026","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/chrisnickinson.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"35"},"893508":{"pb_id":"44418","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"893508","comment_id":"893508","member_id":"44418","comment":"

<\/a>Bill Meylan, on , said:<\/p>

\nI have the Boy's New Jersey Shore Conference Champ race (at Ocean County Park) running 63 seconds faster than the boy's races at the Shore Coaches Invitational (at Holmdel Park) .... Therefore, Mike McClemens' winning time at the Conference Champ (14:42.34) is equivalent to 15:45 at Holmdel Park, which was the winning time by Mike Brannigan (Northport), who is currently 29th on the list above, at the Coaches Invite.
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nThank you for that analysis. And thank you for your work on tullyrunners.com ... I'd be lost on NY\/NJ without it.","date_added":"Oct 25th 2013, 7:09pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":{"wally_id":"1082747","email_settings":"4294967295","email":"dbind4@aol.com","address":"DougB","gender":"u","member_id":"44418","member_name":"DougB","avatar_location":"av-44418.jpg","avatar_type":"upload","avatar":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-44418.jpg"},"can_delete":false,"item_id":191358,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-44418.jpg","pb_title":"DougB","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=44418","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/DougB.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1082747"},"893498":{"pb_id":"43715","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"893498","comment_id":"893498","member_id":"43715","comment":"

<\/a>DontStopPre, on , said:<\/p>

\nNot a bad place to be, 3-7 seconds behind Hardy, Dressel, and Wilmot. Tanner Anderson would be in my top 25.
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nIndeed. He pushed Dressel pretty good at their league meet on Wednesday (14:47-14:50 at Audubon, which ranks pretty highly all-time - I think the course record is 14:44? going off memory though)
\n
\nBest duo in the nation, since Henderson's Barchet hasn't exactly been running as well as he as last year, is probably either North Central (who I'd give a slight edge to), American Fork, or Fayetteville-Manlius. Don't forget, FM's duo were the #2-5 scorers at Manhattan; CBA's finished #7 and #9.
\n
\nBest #7 in the nation, though, is either CBA or possibly American Fork. CBA's strength is their depth.
\n
\nEDIT: Quick check shows this, roughly, for Audubon's bests over the last few years -
\n
\n1. Kai Wilmot 14:44 (2012)
\n2. John Dressel 14:47 (2013)
\n3. Tanner Anderson 14:50 (2013)
\n4. Nathan Weitz 14:5x?? (2011 ... don't remember what his time was, somewhere around Gardner's)
\n5. Andrew Gardner 14:57 (2011)
\n6. Anthony Armstrong 15:07 (2011)
\n
\nprevious course record was around 15:10 I think? and this is a course that's been around the GSL for quite a while. All the above were All-Americans.","date_added":"Oct 25th 2013, 7:04pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":191358,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-43715.jpg","pb_title":"watchout","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=43715","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/profile.php?member_id=43715","pb_wally_id":"1073498"},"893488":{"pb_id":"45158","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"893488","comment_id":"893488","member_id":"45158","comment":"

<\/a>DougB, on , said:<\/p>

\nThat's a fair point about Tanner Anderson. He's very good. But 4th at Richland and 6th at Bob Firman puts him consistently behind the Wilmot-Dressel duo in the biggest meets. I think if I listed an additional 10 guys, he'd be there.
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nNot a bad place to be, 3-7 seconds behind Hardy, Dressel, and Wilmot. Tanner Anderson would be in my top 25.","date_added":"Oct 25th 2013, 6:29pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":191358,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"DontStopPre","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=45158","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/profile.php?member_id=45158","pb_wally_id":"1182171"},"893480":{"pb_id":"43675","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"893480","comment_id":"893480","member_id":"43675","comment":"

<\/a>Joe Lanzalotto, on , said:<\/p>

\nThe course couldn't be flatter with no tough turns and little or nothing in the way of tough terrain unless the grass was long which is doubtful. By way of comparison, I saw Craig Forys go 15:05 there in 2006 after he went by the accepted mile mark in 4:35.
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nI have the Boy's New Jersey Shore Conference Champ race (at Ocean County Park) running 63 seconds faster than the boy's races at the Shore Coaches Invitational (at Holmdel Park) .... Therefore, Mike McClemens' winning time at the Conference Champ (14:42.34) is equivalent to 15:45 at Holmdel Park, which was the winning time by Mike Brannigan (Northport), who is currently 29th on the list above, at the Coaches Invite.","date_added":"Oct 25th 2013, 5:35pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":191358,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"Bill Meylan","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=43675","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/Bill-Meylan.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1073444"},"893417":{"pb_id":"44418","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"893417","comment_id":"893417","member_id":"44418","comment":"That's a fair point about Tanner Anderson. He's very good. But 4th at Richland and 6th at Bob Firman puts him consistently behind the Wilmot-Dressel duo in the biggest meets. I think if I listed an additional 10 guys, he'd be there.","date_added":"Oct 25th 2013, 3:31pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":{"wally_id":"1082747","email_settings":"4294967295","email":"dbind4@aol.com","address":"DougB","gender":"u","member_id":"44418","member_name":"DougB","avatar_location":"av-44418.jpg","avatar_type":"upload","avatar":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-44418.jpg"},"can_delete":false,"item_id":191358,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-44418.jpg","pb_title":"DougB","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=44418","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/DougB.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1082747"},"893406":{"pb_id":"43805","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"893406","comment_id":"893406","member_id":"43805","comment":"Bsarno, I would give the best 1-2 in the nation to either North Central (WA). They have Kai Wilmot (#12) and Tanner Anderson, who is usually just a few seconds back from Kai or John Dressel (#16).
\n
\nBtw Doug, why is Tanner not mentioned as either in the top 25 or as an honorable mention. He seems to only be a few seconds back from ranked runners (At Richland Invite, he was 7 seconds back from Joe HArdy (#3), 5 seconds from Dressel, and 2 or 3 back from Wilmot).
\n
\nI would agree with CBA having the top 7th runner in the nation.","date_added":"Oct 25th 2013, 1:49pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":191358,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"RunSpokane","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=43805","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/RunSpokane.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1073997"},"893399":{"pb_id":"3300","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"893399","comment_id":"893399","member_id":"3300","comment":"The course couldn't be flatter with no tough turns and little or nothing in the way of tough terrain unless the grass was long which is doubtful. By way of comparison, I saw Craig Forys go 15:05 there in 2006 after he went by the accepted mile mark in 4:35.","date_added":"Oct 25th 2013, 12:45pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":191358,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"Joe Lanzalotto","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=3300","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/Joe-Lanzalotto.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"7321"},"893389":{"pb_id":"45736","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"893389","comment_id":"893389","member_id":"45736","comment":"

<\/a>DougB, on , said:<\/p>

\nI love the debate over rankings and I absolutely stand by mine. I think they are getting increasingly dialed in with each release. So I welcome any of the questions.
\n
\nThat Shore Conference meet ... I'm not sure what to make of it just yet. Four guys under 15 minutes on a course where there has never been one before? A 15:41 win in the JV race? That is clearly a very fast course but I will assume it is labeled correctly at 5K and take those results into account. The fact that O'Neill was beaten by McClellan and Ferro is a little surprising to me, to be honest. And I will definitely take that into consideration for the next round of rankings. When I did my preseason top 100 I think I had three CBA guys in the top 100. Cracking the top 30 isn't easy but I will definitely take a close look at those top CBA guys between now and then.
\n
\nWhen I said I hope I have the athletes "pegged "near" the right spots" I didn't mean to suggest that I do it haphazardly. I try to locate all of the best performances and adjust the previous list accordingly. I don't apply all of the mathematical metrics that Watchout uses for the team rankings. I definitely go a bit more by feel than he does and rely on my experience and good sense to come up with a list that I can publish and defend.
\n
\nIf someone has a different idea of that the top 10 or 20 (or whatever) looks like, feel free to post that list and we'll keep talking about it.
<\/div><\/div>
\nAccording to Star Ledger, the course is flat and the CBA runners saw an opportunity to hit some fast times. Still they shattered the record and the race was hailed as the fastest in state history.
\nScarier was the JV race where CBA had the first 15 finishers. Need to check next race to see how these performances stack up.","date_added":"Oct 25th 2013, 11:48am","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":191358,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"Bsarno1","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=45736","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/Bsarno1.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1116260"},"893299":{"pb_id":"44418","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"893299","comment_id":"893299","member_id":"44418","comment":"I love the debate over rankings and I absolutely stand by mine. I think they are getting increasingly dialed in with each release. So I welcome any of the questions.
\n
\nThat Shore Conference meet ... I'm not sure what to make of it just yet. Four guys under 15 minutes on a course where there has never been one before? A 15:41 win in the JV race? That is clearly a very fast course but I will assume it is labeled correctly at 5K and take those results into account. The fact that O'Neill was beaten by McClellan and Ferro is a little surprising to me, to be honest. And I will definitely take that into consideration for the next round of rankings. When I did my preseason top 100 I think I had three CBA guys in the top 100. Cracking the top 30 isn't easy but I will definitely take a close look at those top CBA guys between now and then.
\n
\nWhen I said I hope I have the athletes "pegged "near" the right spots" I didn't mean to suggest that I do it haphazardly. I try to locate all of the best performances and adjust the previous list accordingly. I don't apply all of the mathematical metrics that Watchout uses for the team rankings. I definitely go a bit more by feel than he does and rely on my experience and good sense to come up with a list that I can publish and defend.
\n
\nIf someone has a different idea of what the top 10 or 20 (or whatever) looks like, feel free to post that list and we'll keep talking about it.","date_added":"Oct 25th 2013, 7:03am","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":{"wally_id":"1082747","email_settings":"4294967295","email":"dbind4@aol.com","address":"DougB","gender":"u","member_id":"44418","member_name":"DougB","avatar_location":"av-44418.jpg","avatar_type":"upload","avatar":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-44418.jpg"},"can_delete":false,"item_id":191358,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-44418.jpg","pb_title":"DougB","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=44418","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/DougB.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1082747"},"893225":{"pb_id":"45736","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"893225","comment_id":"893225","member_id":"45736","comment":"Shore Conference meet in NJ poses new challenges for individual rankings.CBA really turned things up a notch and raised the question of who has the best 1-2 in the nation as well as who has the best seven.
\nO'Neill ran a sub 15 at Ocean County Park...and finished fourth.
\nWinner, McClemens, and runner up Dylan Tarpey of Freehold Township are both 4:14 milers.
\nCBA's no.2. today, Blaise Ferro, also was excellent.
\nThere is a lot of racing left, but the top 2and maybe Top three, should be in the top 50 mix.
\nGood luck...the serious racing has started in the Northeast!","date_added":"Oct 25th 2013, 4:53am","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":191358,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"Bsarno1","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=45736","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/Bsarno1.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1116260"},"893144":{"pb_id":"42418","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"893144","comment_id":"893144","member_id":"42418","comment":"In some ways, I liken it to Top 25 rankings for college FB and BB. Because a team outside the top 25 (like Russell) beats someone pretty high (like Burke), doesn't mean they go all the way ahead of them. Now, I strongly suspect if Russell backs it up another time or two -- not necessarily beating Burke but showing he's a major performer again in a major meet like state or others -- he'll move up pretty quick.","date_added":"Oct 25th 2013, 12:59am","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":191358,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-42418.jpeg","pb_title":"SteveU","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=42418","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/SteveU.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1030740"},"893036":{"pb_id":"9184","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"893036","comment_id":"893036","member_id":"9184","comment":"

<\/a>DougB, on , said:<\/p>

Hopefully everybody on the lists feels recognized for their efforts and has been pegged "near" the right spots!<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nMaybe in the future there will be some panel-like rankings where the order is based by average votes, and it also shows high-low ranges for each athlete to address that difficult aspect?
\n
\nDan","date_added":"Oct 24th 2013, 10:10pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":191358,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"members\/avatar\/3295.jpg","pb_title":"dkap","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=9184","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/dkap.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"10044"},"892883":{"pb_id":"44418","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"892883","comment_id":"892883","member_id":"44418","comment":"Russell did beat Burke by four seconds at Manhattan.
\n
\nSo I dropped Burke back a few spots and Russell, who was not ranked previously, goes into the rankings this week at 21.
\n
\nThomas O'Neill was sixth at Manhattan and he's still there at 14.
\n
\nWhile Manhattan is important, I can't let that one race dictate the order. The fact that it's also shorter is one of the reasons why. Are you sure Burke wouldn't have covered those four seconds in the next 6\/10ths of a mile? Doesn't this course tilt the advantages to those who have speed more than endurance?
\n
\nI can't overlook that Burke broke a pretty good course record at the McQuaid Invite or that I still think he's probably the top guy in New York. Or that O'Neill ran a pretty strong 15:42 at Holmdel recently.
\n
\nI can also say that in a situation like the guys from Spokane, Washington -- where Kai Wilmot and John Dressel have been in the same race several times -- I don't have a good handle on who's better. Maybe I'm placing too much emphasis on Wilmot's win at Bob Firman. Dressel beat him at Richland.
\n
\nHopefully everybody on the lists feels recognized for their efforts and has been pegged "near" the right spots!","date_added":"Oct 24th 2013, 7:56pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":{"wally_id":"1082747","email_settings":"4294967295","email":"dbind4@aol.com","address":"DougB","gender":"u","member_id":"44418","member_name":"DougB","avatar_location":"av-44418.jpg","avatar_type":"upload","avatar":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-44418.jpg"},"can_delete":false,"item_id":191358,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-44418.jpg","pb_title":"DougB","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=44418","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/DougB.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1082747"},"892851":{"pb_id":"45736","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"892851","comment_id":"892851","member_id":"45736","comment":"Curious....it is hard to rank kids who do not race each other...however Russell beat Burke handily at Manhattan and I doubt extra kilometer would have altered the result.","date_added":"Oct 24th 2013, 7:09pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":191358,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"Bsarno1","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=45736","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/Bsarno1.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1116260"}},"last_id":"892851","url":"comments.php?item_type=news&item_id=191358&item_url=profile.php?member_id=42418"}